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Topic: fuel pump removal

Posted By: csr123 on 04/06/11 02:09pm

1998 winnebago brave ford 460 i have to replace fuel pump it is dead the tank is full 75 gallons was wondering if i can cut access hole under the bed instead of dropping the tank i am currently parked in storage lot was quoted $1150 to tow and replace pump at rv shop approx 30 miles away would really like to take care of this myself and my mechanic back home suggested cutting the access hole thanx for any help in this matter


Posted By: Big Katuna on 04/06/11 02:34pm

You could. There is a harness adapter required for the newer pump that a hole might not leave room to do. There is/was a write up here on how to add an inline pump near where the fuel filter is on the frame rail and leave you old pump in place. Dirt Rod posted it. I think a mod has the write up. I bought the OEM pump and had my shade tree guy do it and I want to say he charged about $350. Didn't drop the tank all the way. Lowered the front strap as far as possible and removed the rear strap, undid the hose (replaced it, too) and could crawl on top of the tank. I brought it to him almost empty.


My Kharma ran over my Dogma.


Posted By: csr123 on 04/06/11 03:01pm

i also considered an inline pump but a couple of threads i read were concerned with the old pump creating too much friction and burning out the pump quickly, the harness adapter has me a little worried as does the pump location i dont want to have a huge hole in the floor i will read the dirt rod post as that would be the easiest solution thanx for the reply


Posted By: Jerry B on 04/06/11 04:35pm

Only you know if you can access the pump thru a hole in the floor. My RV has another floor under the inside floor with tanks, plumbing etcetera. If you can work on it where it is, get someone to help you and do it yourself for about $200. I lowered mine with about 65 gallons in it. Not a big deal at all.


Jerry B
Mobile Suites 36TK3


Posted By: JimD10796 on 04/06/11 04:48pm

I had to change our pump out within a month of buying our motorhome, a 1996 f53. It too was slam full of fuel. Can't say i'd recommend cutting a big hole in the floor as easy as that tank is to drop. What i did was remove the filler tube and use a piece of 3/4 heater hose to siphon the gas out, i used 2 5 gallon cans and transfered to 55 gallon drums. Got about 72 of the 75 gallons out. Used 2 floor jacks to lower the tank. Also take time to check the float while your there, mine had some fuel in it and i got a replacement at the dealer for $9.


Posted By: garry1p on 04/06/11 04:55pm

I bet you can do it or have it done for a lot less than $1150.

Storage containers to save the fuel & reuse would be one way to go.

Just be careful and don't use anything that can create a spark.


Garry1p


1990 Holiday Rambler Aluma Lite XL
454 on P-30 Chassis
1999 Jeep Cherokee sport



Posted By: Lt46 on 04/06/11 05:01pm

With all this concern regarding in tank fuel pumps, I took a hard look at my coach to see if a floor hole would be possible. Way too much to deal with in my book. I'll siphon before I'd cut anything.


Peter & Dawn
97 Winnebago Adventurer 37RW
F53/460 w/ tag axle
96 Prowler 27X SOLD
IAFF L-792 (Ret.)



Posted By: csr123 on 04/06/11 05:04pm

thanx for the replies i am storing the winnie in a gravel lot on a campground about an hours drive from the house i can see the top of the tank and it is a clear shot to the floor under the bed i dont think the campground would be upset about pumping the fuel out i would have to ask, but the ground is not that stable and i have to remove the rear leveler jacks stabilizer bar so they are not an option and i would need two 55 gallon drums and at least two or three floor jacks with jack stands on gravel working completely on my back, i have dropped a fuel tank several times but the current location of the rv makes me a bit nervous, got a price on fords replacement pump $510 is it worth the money or should i use an aftermarket pump thanx again for all the great info


Posted By: Big Katuna on 04/06/11 05:12pm

Try Googling "Discount ford parts". I found mine for under $300.


Posted By: fcooper on 04/06/11 05:23pm

CSR123

If you want Dirt Rod's external fuel pump documents, send me your email via private message and I'll send them to you. We had an F53 at one time and I considered doing his install.

I'm thinking you're better off cutting the hole, replacing the original pump, and installing some type of plate over the hole. A boat access circular plate might work.

Fred


Fred & Vicki
Richmond Hill, Ga
2000 Holiday Rambler Endeavor/Freightliner/330 Cat
2000 Honda Odyssey toad w SMI Silent Partner braking system
TST507 TPMS


Posted By: philandterri on 04/06/11 05:32pm

I had my fuel pump replaced (96 Ford Bounder)two years ago in Flagler Beach Florida by a small shop. They had to remove my rear jacks and lowered the tank, 3/4 full, with a floor jack. Took about two hours. Total cost was less than $800 parts and labor.


Posted By: Timster on 04/06/11 06:01pm

I too have replaced the fuel pump in my 96 F53,i was also stranded about 3 hrs. from home.After the pump cooled it would start, so i headed for home after dumping a qt. of trans fluid in the tank(a tip i have heard to buy time on a bad pump)Made it home ok and changed the pump by lowering one end of the tank and the crawling up on it.I bought my motorcraft pump and harness from Rock Auto for about 330 and change.


Posted By: #40Fan on 04/06/11 10:04pm

I would cut the hole! When you are done, just in case you ever sell it, put a sticker on the tank that reads "Fuel pump removal under bed", just so the next guy knows what you did.


2013 Arctic Fox 22GQ
2011 Ram 2500 CC LB CTD G56 3.42 Mineral Gray


Posted By: Gale Hawkins on 04/06/11 10:06pm

Timster wrote:

I too have replaced the fuel pump in my 96 F53,i was also stranded about 3 hrs. from home.After the pump cooled it would start, so i headed for home after dumping a qt. of trans fluid in the tank(a tip i have heard to buy time on a bad pump)Made it home ok and changed the pump by lowering one end of the tank and the crawling up on it.I bought my motorcraft pump and harness from Rock Auto for about 330 and change.


The oil in the gas I read is good for fuel pumps. I have started using a 1:500 mix of WM TCW3 marine outboard oil in the gas for our 1992 P30 and 1989 F700 truck to try to add life to the intank fuel pumps. I use it 1:100 ratio on the old diesel engines to reduce injector pump noise.

I would consider the hole in the floor fix personally if the area in question was open space.


Posted By: 96Bounder30E on 04/06/11 10:12pm

For the ones of you who have cut the hole in the floor over the fuel pump I have a question for you........does your Motorhome not have basement storage requiring you to actually cut 2 holes?........in my case my black tank is right over the fuel pump inside the basement......cutting a hole would create a nasty mess!


Posted By: Gale Hawkins on 04/06/11 10:37pm

We have not had a failure yet but our 1993 GBM 32' on a 1992 P30 chassis is clear behind the duals. I think design is going to vary from builder to builder.


Posted By: dsbsi on 04/07/11 01:00am

csr123

Before you go any farther, check your Ford owners manual. My 1995 F53 Ford has a fuel pump cutoff switch that stops the fuel pump in case of an accident. (1.)Located under the dash to the right of the parking brake pedal is a small box with a round top collar fastened to the steering column metal brace. The button inside the round collar should be in the normal pushed down position. (2.)My Ford power distribution box is located under the outside front hood just above the radiator cap and is a black plastic box marked FUSES. It contains the maxi fuses for the fuel pump relay coil and fuel pump feed. Each time I turn on the ignition switch I can hear the fuel pump run for 2 seconds. I find it very strange that you drove into a storage lot and now at a later date the fuel pump does not operate. The problem with the old style pump was that it had a vapor lock type problem in hot weather but not with a full tank of gas. Did someone siphon your tank dry or mice chew through a wire? Tell us what you find.

Dwight


Dwight
1995 Ford F53 Bounder 35U
Cold Spring Minnesota


Posted By: Gale Hawkins on 04/07/11 02:44am

Those are some good observations Dwight.


Posted By: BobR on 04/07/11 06:11am

I vote for dropping the tank. It seems easier to drop the tank than to cut a hole in the floor. I would not want to breach the weather proofing that protects the wood substrate flooring from the elements and critters.

Also, Dwight has a good point. Check your inertia switch and fuses before proceeding. I know my pump failed intermittently and took about 6 hours of testing for it to falter again.


Posted By: csr123 on 04/07/11 09:59am

thanx again for all of the great replies i have checked all of the fuses and inertia switch and the relay and even openend the wire loom right in front of gas tank and i have the correct 3 second power running to the pump after ignition, the tank is still full of gas i have a locked cap and the gauge is reading full, the winnie was sitting for close to six monthes in storage i tried hitting the tank with rubber mallet to get pump running and i listened with a stethoscope while someone else turned the ignition, i am very happy i posted and very grateful for the responses!
chris


Posted By: Ductape Dave on 04/07/11 01:31pm

Ahhhhhhh, the popular ford fuel pump, that is my next DREADED job, thought I could cut a hole in the floor but the plumbing tanks are in the way so I guess I will be removing the gas and dropping the tank. I purchased an Airtex fuel pump from Rock Auto for $128.00, figured if Ford is not making good on the bad pump why give them more money.


Nexus 24' Phantom w/slide


Posted By: FuelFunnel on 04/07/11 06:41pm

On my 1991 Holiday Rambler, there is a side access cover in the basement compartment that gives access to the top of the fuel tank. The problem I had is that there was not enough room between the top of the tank and the bottom of the floor (heater ducting) to change the pump.


So I ended up having to cut the hold-down tubes on the fuel pump.


And then re-secure them with using collars with set screws.


That way, I was able to easily get the fuel pump in the tank with the collars disconected.


Then, with a drop of blue Loctite on the set screws, re-install the collars on the hold-down tubes, and procede with finishing the job.


The reason I decided to not drop the tank was that I previously had to change the filler vent hose. Due to the tight clearences between the hose, hose clamp, tank, and frame, I had a difficult time with that job. Dropping the tank probably would have required removing this hose and the bigger filler hose, and I didn't want to do it again.

I did not want to cut a hole in the floor because my heater ducting would have also had to be cut and somehow re-sealed.

Also, if I allready have a spare pump allready cut and collared, I figure I could change it out again anywhere I happen to break down in about a ½-hour with no special tools or jacks required.

Kris


Posted By: Lt46 on 04/07/11 07:01pm

Funnel,
Very,very clever, nice work and great description! I'd love to have that kind of access to the top of my tank.


Posted By: Gale Hawkins on 04/07/11 07:20pm

Very nice solution. I like the idea of a hatch should it happen again or something go wrong when installing.


Posted By: dsbsi on 04/08/11 12:50am

CSR 123
Check your Ford chassis vehicle build date carefully.
My Ford replacement pump and sender came with the following information.
Vehicles built 11/27/96 - 6/30/97 required a F7PZ-9A213-CA Jumper Harness
Vehicles built after 6/30/97 already have the Jumper Harness and New Turbine Pump.
Your Ford F53 460 could already have the new style Turbine Fuel Pump.
Dwight


Posted By: dsbsi on 04/08/11 01:10am

CSR 123
My 1995 F53 has a star washer bolted to the inside of the frame rail near the electrical wire connection that goes to the fuel tank. Did you remove and clean and reseal this ground wire when you tested for the 2 second 12 volts to the fuel pump? You did say the fuel gauge was working.
Dwight


Posted By: Jerry B on 04/08/11 05:42am

FuelFunnel wrote:

On my 1991 Holiday Rambler, there is a side access cover in the basement compartment that gives access to the top of the fuel tank. The problem I had is that there was not enough room between the top of the tank and the bottom of the floor (heater ducting) to change the pump.


So I ended up having to cut the hold-down tubes on the fuel pump.


And then re-secure them with using collars with set screws.


That way, I was able to easily get the fuel pump in the tank with the collars disconected.


Then, with a drop of blue Loctite on the set screws, re-install the collars on the hold-down tubes, and procede with finishing the job.


The reason I decided to not drop the tank was that I previously had to change the filler vent hose. Due to the tight clearences between the hose, hose clamp, tank, and frame, I had a difficult time with that job. Dropping the tank probably would have required removing this hose and the bigger filler hose, and I didn't want to do it again.

I did not want to cut a hole in the floor because my heater ducting would have also had to be cut and somehow re-sealed.

Also, if I allready have a spare pump allready cut and collared, I figure I could change it out again anywhere I happen to break down in about a ½-hour with no special tools or jacks required.

Kris



Kris, you ARE the mechanic. Brilliant!


Posted By: csr123 on 04/08/11 10:05am

thanx again for replies first kris that was a great idea you came up with the pictures were also incredible, i looked for the grounding location for a long time and i am guessing it is on chasis on the top of tank because i could not find it i did ground the gas tank itself with a jumper from neg battery terminal and pump did not run my mechanic told me to try that under the pretense that the pump to tank contact maybe rusted and not work anyway, i just picked up new pump with harness adapter thanx to all about the harness adapter never would have thought of that and hoping to get up to winnie this weekend i will definitly check ground when i have access, again thanx and will post with my results
chris


Posted By: Jerry B on 04/08/11 08:55pm

Usually the failure mode of this pump is that it runs but won't produce gas at the necessary pressure. When mine went out, I could hear it running. Would have thrown me off on my diagnosis but I was aware of the normal failure mode.


Posted By: Jim@HiTek on 04/08/11 09:07pm

Why not just install an Airtex external fuel pump? (After you've tested for other related issues like the relay and fuses). Nearly all modern pumps I'm familiar with allow fuel to be pulled (suctioned) through them, unless the filter is fully clogged (unlikely in a clean tank - unless you have some vandals in the neighborhood).


Jim@HiTek
Have shop, will travel!
Visit my travel & RV repair blog site. Subscribe for emailed updates.
Fleetwood Bounder, '94
Cummins Diesel, 190HP, 36.5' with 50HP LP boost.
Black Rock Lava Park, Nevada



Posted By: csr123 on 04/09/11 07:07am

my original idea was to install an inline external pump before the fuel filter but a few posts suggested that the old pump would create friction and cause the external pump to burn out quicker, also my mechanic said it might be difficult to get the correct pressure at the rail if pump was drawing fuel through old pump i was emailed dirt rods pictures and schematic which i thought would work perfect


Posted By: Gale Hawkins on 04/09/11 09:34am

csr123 wrote:

my original idea was to install an inline external pump before the fuel filter but a few posts suggested that the old pump would create friction and cause the external pump to burn out quicker, also my mechanic said it might be difficult to get the correct pressure at the rail if pump was drawing fuel through old pump i was emailed dirt rods pictures and schematic which i thought would work perfect


csr123 you point out some real concerns to consider when trying to get fuel to the tank with an add-on external fuel pump.

The PSI demands is a very important consideration. Our old 1992 454 TBI only requires for the fuel pump to develop 13 PSI the best I remember. That is not much more PSI than required for old carbed engines. If you have looked through the options for pumps some like Summit, others you have seen they range from 4 PSI to around a 100 PSI.

The next issue after PSI is pump volume rating and will the old in-tank fuel pump make it too hard to get the gas out of the tank? 12 GPH was the lowest rating I saw with some going over 100 GPH.

Assuming one is getting 6 MPG and driving 60 MPH then the pump max demand would be 10 GPH. That means to fill a 5 gallon gas can would take 30 minutes which would seem like a long time if we were holding the can.

I expect the external fuel pump is a valid option for many. Splicing in the external fuel pump and the wiring would be the largest job and if one was doing the labor you are talking around $100. Should it fail then you just need to have a spare pump on hand which for many would be less than $75.

Clearly dropping the tank is not going to be as cheap but it would be back to OEM specs PLUS you could replace all new rubber lines at the same time including the pick-up line for the onboard genset.

One danger of these forums I find is they cause me to mainly worry about things that never seem to happen.

In over 40 years I have two fuel pumps to fail and both were in-tank pumps and the tanks were fuel of gas. One the 735i BMW I bought a used one for $200, opened the trunk and installed it with effort. On the Blazer I paid a good shop nearly $1000 to drop the tank and replace it and the fuel pump alone was well over $300.


Posted By: NHgrizzly on 04/17/11 07:19pm

I replaced out fuel pump and dropped the tank. It wasnt that bad. I also had 75 gallons of gas that siphoned into 5 gallons cans and filled all the cars,lawnmowers, etc..
I considered cutting a hole in the floor, but wasnt crazy about cutting the floor and storage bay. The tank is held in by two bolts and two straps.

As others have suggested, get the airtex replacement module. Its comes with the pump, gasket and sock filter. No reason to change the harness as it uses the original hardware. Ford wanted $400 for the pump assembly. The module was about $100.


Steve
1996 Damon Challenger 313
2011 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
2006 Cadillac STS-4


Posted By: Gale Hawkins on 04/17/11 07:24pm

Thanks for the update and glad you have fuel flowing. Now for only $300 you can refill it.


Posted By: Jagtech on 04/17/11 08:49pm

I cut an access hole under the rear bed in our '98 F-53 (no basement). It was relatively easy to do, and I made it into a weatherproof hatch that I can remove in minutes. I carefully measured the exact location of the fuel pump (there's about 5-6" of space above the fuel tank) and transferred the measurements inside. I cut an 11" square access hole. Now I can change that pump, anywhere, anytime, in about 30 minutes. And no need to drain and store 75 gallons of gas!
Not all coaches are this easy; I guess I was lucky, as there were no obstacles to doing this. Just be careful when cutting the floor to not cut into the tank.


1998 Triple E F53
1995 Jeep Wrangler toad



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